Missile Fuel Changes?

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geldonyetich
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Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by geldonyetich » Fri, 17. May 24, 22:19

Oddly enough, I have memories of missiles having much more fuel, at least around 20-25km worth. You used to have to spend a long time dodging or deploying countermeasures before they would stop being a problem.

Now they only seem to travel about 5km before self-destructing! It makes chasing a fast target with them rather awkward. And what's the point of smart missiles being able to automatically retarget someone else if they can't even if reach the first before running out of fuel?

(Yes I know that missiles have crazy long range already if you fire them when moving quickly.)

So, two questions:
  • Was this intentionally changed, unintentionally changed, or am I misremembering?
  • Is there a mod for this? If not , I wouldn't mind modding it myself, seems like that's just one number per missile in an XML file somewhere.

LameFox
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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by LameFox » Sat, 18. May 24, 04:29

Maybe you had VRO or something? I know that makes a lot of range changes.

Missiles (and everything) in vanilla have always had really short ranges.
***modified***

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 18. May 24, 09:06

Suspect the ranges of missiles (& guns) have been chosen to ensure that most combat occurs well within visual range - the longer the range of a weapon the smaller the apparent size of whatever you're shooting at. Have played a number of real world flight sims over the years & quickly found my interest in them drops off a cliff when they stop being about dogfighting with guns & are instead more about launching missiles. With accurately simulated missile ranges most targets are (at best) represented by a couple of pixels off in the distance. Just didn't find that sort of thing remotely satisfying. Very glad that in X4 I can get a good look at the beautiful ships they've created while I'm doing my best to blow them to bits.

As for the point of smart missiles, the retargeting can be useful if someone else destroys the primary target soon after launch, while there's still plenty of fuel in the tank to go after a different target. Mostly find them useful in fleet battles where there's no shortage of potential targets. They're also immune to flares.

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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by TroubledRabbit » Sat, 18. May 24, 19:56

spectacle guys.
The whole concept of 'fight in space' in X4 (or BSG Galactica or any other space opera of such) is completey ridiculous and this is, in the game, or any game which hasn't got an ambition of being 'kind of >>realistic<< simulator' completely irrelevant.

Those who watched the 'Expanse'* (or red the books, or any 'sci-fi realism of a kind' literature like Lem) might imagine how the 'combat in space' would look like
Spoiler
Show
It was 8th month sice we got the order of pursuing the enemy's patrol and after 3 weeks of navigation we've finally reached a point of pre-engagement, our Capitain decided to go forward right into area of engagemnt. Just slightly below 20.000 clicks so we might still a chance to dodge hell out of the shit if the enemy would be able to retaliate. Three days after careful manouvering, we have fired torpedoes. The 1st wave of 6 and then three anoter ones in precalculated anti-evasion sequence.
And we had ran like hell.
Something had to go really not according to the plan. Otherwise I would not be floating in the bloody space between Pluto and Neptune with last drops of oxigen left. Anyway - it was a good ride.
#COMPUTER VOICE: Thank you for your service petty oficer Johnson.


The closest thing to the 'space combat simulator' would be submarine one maybe, just without the scope and with blips on screen instead.
While that kind of game might be quite engaging (I would love the one, just like the SilentService and such) I doubt if it would be particularly engaging to the more general audience.

So... the spectacle. The ships watched up close, that stuff ;)

*the show drasticly compressed the time between events for obvious reason.
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geldonyetich
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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by geldonyetich » Sat, 18. May 24, 22:47

Thanks for the replies. I suppose I might have misrecollected.

I see that the details on the official wiki paint a clearer picture. A smart missile doesn't self destruct after 5km but it does around 7.5 which will seem similar to the player. Meanwhile, heavy dumbfire can fly a whopping 24! I know what I am bringing to my next station turret run. (Although I think the last time I did that the shields rebuffed me.)

That said, I probably would mod them to have a considerably longer lifetime because dodging missiles is so easy the AI does it by accident most of the time, you can shoot them down, and most of them are easily foiled by countermeasures. Considering everyone can hold a rather limited number of missiles, I think they are precious commodities that have more than enough counterbalances without giving them a range barely longer than most M-sized ships.

But I could keep the low lock on range because of engine limitations and also so people can still enjoy gun range combat, despite the realism inconsistencies. Maybe the ECM is just really good in the X universe so that's just as good as lock on ranges get.

What I would really like to do is be able to load up a Destroyer with swarms or smart missiles and they would be able to put up a persistent stream of relocking missiles that would prove repellent to fighters for a while. But at the moment what happens is they blow through their missile stock fairly quickly and most of the missiles will self destruct en route to their targets after missing once.

On top of that a light missile hits with the power of an aggressive spitwad, and heavy missiles are too slow to catch many targets when fired from a destroyer, so between misses and weak hits you can expect a destroyer to blow through about 200 missiles to bring down a handful of Xenon M. Granted, they'll do it faster than a flak loadout, but for a very limited duration. Efficiency works out better if you put them on a couple of heavy hardpoints instead because they dole them out slower so the missile interception timing is less likely to be awful.

So overall it feels like missiles have been repeatedly nerfed far below where they should be. But if they actually had enough fuel range to leverage their self guidance then they would have a niche.

However, missiles do have another niche: they don't compete with other weapons for heat. So, for forward mounted weapon arrays, you can up your sustained damage by sprinkling a few launchers in there. E.g. on a PAR Perseus instead of two chainguns try a chaingun and a missile launcher. A shame Corvettes have such abysmal missile capacity. Also not relevant for capital ships where your turrets keep their heat to themselves, of course.

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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 19. May 24, 00:26

geldonyetich wrote:
Sat, 18. May 24, 22:47
On top of that a light missile hits with the power of an aggressive spitwad, and heavy missiles are too slow to catch many targets when fired from a destroyer, so between misses and weak hits you can expect a destroyer to blow through about 200 missiles to bring down a handful of Xenon M. Granted, they'll do it faster than a flak loadout, but for a very limited duration. Efficiency works out better if you put them on a couple of heavy hardpoints instead because they dole them out slower so the missile interception timing is less likely to be awful.
I don't consider it essential for light missiles to inflict damage, instead their primary function as far as I'm concerned is simply to force enemy fighters to evade - while they're busy being evasive they're not shooting at my fighters. I use frigates on intercept as my preferred Light Smart delivery platform. Each frigate can carry 100 of them, so a carrier's complement can maintain a continuous barrage of 50 or so of them zipping around the battlefield at any given time. LOTS of evasion starts happening soon after they take off, which has noticeably reduced the casualty rate amongst my fighters (tested during the fight against the VIG horde at the end of the TOA plot).

As for the heavies, mostly use them in an anti-capital role. Around 1/3 of my carrier's S fighter complement are heavy fighters armed with Starburst for preference (unless I'm playing as a Boron). Their function is to harass & delay the approach of enemy capitals (& hopefully smash a few subsystems, hence the missiles) while my destroyers blow them to bits from long range. Also like to fit a couple of missile turrets (set to 'attack capital ships only') on my personal capitals, just to give them a bit of extra punch if I end up as a close range brawl. Found this approach particularly useful in my Boron game since Ray's Ion Projector isn't particularly good against bare hull. Consequently when an enemy capital's shields have failed I approach close enough for my missile turrets to start firing & they make up the difference. Tend to mod those launchers with 'Cowboy' to improve rate of fire.

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geldonyetich
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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by geldonyetich » Sun, 19. May 24, 01:16

Interesting applications all, and indeed I have had considerable success quickly taking out capital ships or even stations with large fighter wings employing heavy swarms.

But when it comes to effective anti-fighter measures, I don't think I am too far out of line thinking it would be nice if missiles were effective for reasons beyond triggering an AI evasion behavior. So the reason why the missile is effective is because the enemy AI pretends they are? Feels like X4 is letting me win. If they actually were worth dodging then that would be different.

Despite finding niches where they could be said to be distracting, delaying, or punch above weight, for missiles in general it's kinda odd to waste credits and hardpoints and still be restricted to limited ammunition of something whose entire function is to fly 7.5km and harmlessly self destruct. Is it really so odd to want something to be plainly effective at what you would expect it to be designed to do? This is the strangeness of the current vanilla missile balance.

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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 19. May 24, 10:23

geldonyetich wrote:
Sun, 19. May 24, 01:16
So the reason why the missile is effective is because the enemy AI pretends they are?
Don't think it's a pretense. Have had major non-Xenon factions as enemies in most of my games (in part because unlike Xenon they do use missiles) & have learnt from experience you can't simply ignore the missile warning light. The only info it provides is that at least one missile is currently inbound, but no indication of how many missile-armed ships are nearby, what they're carrying or how many missiles have been launched (though if one has been detected it's fairly likely that there will soon be several more following it).

Evading is the only sensible option if you're in a fighter - light missiles have a broadly equivalent dps to Plasma Cannon but with projectile speeds that means they probably will hit if you fly in a straight line without boosting or going into travel mode. If you're flying a capital ship heavy missiles can make a real mess of your subsystems, if they nuke your engines you're in particular trouble.

This is precisely why I've adopted a similar approach for my own fleets - intercept frigates full of Light Smart to make life hell for enemy fighters & bombardment heavy fighters loaded with Starburst to debilitate enemy capitals. Both have made a significant difference to how well my fleets perform in battle.

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geldonyetich
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Re: Missile Fuel Changes?

Post by geldonyetich » Sun, 19. May 24, 19:26

I'll relent on this point: the damage is enough. I was hunting in a Perseus using light swarm missiles and the damage was actually considerably better than I recalled. They far out damaged the chaingun on the other hardpoint and allowed for quickly dispatching my foes (although unexpected reinforcements eventually wore down the lone Perseus).

Unexpectedly, these light smart missiles stuck around a lot longer than the 10 seconds mentioned on the wiki. I don't know why that is, but it seems my recollection of them lasting a while was not misguided after all. I think they were too fast to be heavy smart missiles; I am pretty sure I attempted to load light ones because I figured that the chaingun wouldn't be that effective at catching nimble targets.

So it seems when up against the likes of BUC Elites and such, the missile lifetime is more than satisfactory. Also, the speed and manueverability of the Perseus proved rather effective at posturing the missiles to hit. Especially when the opponent was coming in on an attack run or trying to create distance for the next.

It seems there's two scenarios that sour my recollection of missile performance:
  1. Hunting down a very fast target, like a fleeing Kyd. It seems like the fuse may be more distance based than time based, because the missile will often self destruct before reaching them. Sure, you could boost. travel drive, or use interceptor missiles. But, for most missiles being casually fired, this scenario creates the impression their fuel is woefully insufficient.
  2. Firing from a stationary firing platform like a station or slow moving destroyer. While the damage might be justified to need to dodge them, in practice a ship that's doing strafing runs against a stationary target before thrusting away to come back around for another is likely in mid-turn at about the point where the missile reaches them, so the missile almost always misses. Thus the missile lifetime seems lacking because you just want them to last long enough for the timing to be better on subsequent attempts.
I am willing to call this a skill issue, but I don't think I am entirely wrong to suggest that, as a tool, missiles are oddly kludgy in these two scenarios.

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